Hi. I'm new. I have been searching for a programme that would enable me to create a slick looking mass family tree for the RPG I'm in and help run. The game is huge, hundreds of active members and thousands of characters. I decided that, for easy reference purposes and just fun and because they would think it's cool I decided to start creating a mass family tree of all the related characters in the game, which number at least a thousand at this time.
I have mapped out some of it on paper; here is one piece:
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg308/wynnyelle/IMG_0692.jpg)
I'm trying to use Visio to make this but I've been at it hours and still can't figure out how. The help index has never turned up any results for "family tree template" or anything else I ask it. Is someone here able to point me in the right direction? And is this even feasible?
I know I want each unit to have a headshot {I have the pics} 100 x 100 pixels or maybe 120 x 120, and below it, name, sex, and a couple other brief bits of info--nothing long. I have that designed on paper as well.
Yikes! :o Well, I think the place to start is the Org Chart feature of Visio. This seems to be less of a family tree, and more of an org chart style drawing. The Visio Help should give you some good info. The Org Chart shapes allow you to insert pictures. The main Visio website reference for Org Charts is here: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/visio/results.aspx?qu=org+chart&av=ZVO120.
There is a wizard which will allow you to export a chart to Excel, for example. If you start with a simple chart, say three shapes, then the Excel file can be a template. You can use the Excel file to record all of the data, and let the wizard import from Excel. It creates a decent org chart, but, for your application, this is probably less satisfactory. One caveat to the Org Chart. A subordinate may have only 1 direct superior. You can use the "dashed" line to show additional superiors (and change the dashed line to solid if you like.)
Anyway, that's where I'd begin with this.
HTH
Wapperdude
Right...while it is a family tree, technically, it is a lot more chaotic than anything a genealogy programme could handle. {So much for truth being stranger than fiction I guess!} And it is daunting. I don't have excel, only visio--I basically just need to be able to create a template and stamp out a similar unit for each character, switching in pictures, names, symbols, and text colours in some cases {not sure if there is a function that would allow text to be partially faded as opposed to full strength, which I want to use to indicate characters whose names appear on the tree, usually as parents, but never actually appeared in the story}. And from there, use solid lines {won't be using any dashes, it's going to have too many lines as it is} without any arrows or anything, just right angles. And to align the units in rows too if possibly. Makes it neater looking and I'm trying to fight the chaos as much as I can here.
I'll look at the help link you gave me and get back to you! Thanks a lot! :)
The other options would be flow chart, or just the basic stencil shapes. Not sure how easy it is to insert pictures with these shapes as I've not tried to do that.
Another point about the Org Chart feature, on the menu bar, there is an Org Chart button. Under this button there are a variety of options that may be invoked. Be sure to explore this feature. It is often overlooked.
Thanks, I'll look into it over the weekend...during the week I get no time to work on things like this. I should also add I'm completely new to the programme itself and have been fiddling around with it without much success but I'll give this a go on saturday.
Org charts look like family trees, but they don't quite function the same, because there are always "two managers", if you know what I mean. The data import and automatic features of the org chart wizard won't be able to handle this unless each pair of parents is somehow combined into a single entry...
Quote from: Visio Guy on May 28, 2009, 08:50:25 PM
Org charts look like family trees, but they don't quite function the same, because there are always "two managers", if you know what I mean. The data import and automatic features of the org chart wizard won't be able to handle this unless each pair of parents is somehow combined into a single entry...
um...no, actually I don't know what you mean...lol. If you're asking how many people will be working on this project/file, it'll only be me.
An org chart has a tree structure where one manager has zero or more reports.
A family tree has two "managers" (mom and dad) with zero or more reports (kids). The structure seems similar, but is quite a bit different. It's like a tree that goes in both directions.
If you need to "just draw that family graph/tree" then probably you can do it easier with graph layout engine?
Consider e.g. GraphViz http://www.graphviz.org/ (http://www.graphviz.org/) (it's free)
First you write/generate the description of your "family tree/graph" like this (in "dot" language):
digraph RPG {
"Mom1" -> "John";
"Dad1" -> "John";
"Mom2" -> "Mary";
"Dad2" -> "Mary";
"John" -> "IceQueen"
"Mary" -> "IceQueen"
"Mom3" -> "Fairy";
"Dad3" -> "Fairy";
"Mom4" -> "TeddyBear";
"Dad4" -> "TeddyBear";
"Fairy" -> "UnknownBeast";
"TeddyBear" -> "UnknownBeast";
"Mary" -> "AnotherUnknownBeast";
"Dad4" -> "AnotherUnknownBeast";
}
Then you run "dot" tool with this input file, and it produces something like the following:
(http://nbelyh.googlepages.com/rpg-test.gif)
You can tune the look and feel, insert pictures, etc in dot file.
Cool!
That's...not quite the look I'm going for although it's a solution of sorts. Is there a way to do it without arrows? {although I'm beginning to think arrows might be good just for the lines from the parents down to the children} I want to use lines at right angles--it looks neater. Meaning only horizontal and vertical lines. Also, once this is constructed is it possible to move characters around {the square with the picture and info in it} and have the lines stretch with them and remain intact? That's important because this tree is getting fresh characters and connections added to it on a regular basis--several a week! :P
Thanks for the help so far, guys. I know that this isn't going to be easy, but whatever programme I need for it I will get. Ultimately if nothing in existence provides what I need it to, then I will begin to look into hiring a programmer to design something custom for me.
This is a lifelong hobby, and therefore I pull all the stops.
Would it be helpful if I whipped up a visual for you guys in Photoshop or something just as an example of what I want it to look like? {a simple unit etc}
Perhaps a shape with a picture.
In Visio, having lines with/without arrow heads is easy. Don't know about GraphViz. The only advantage that GraphViz might have is the ease of adding pictures to the shapes. At least, they talk about that as a feature. Too bad that OrgChart feature isn't built-in for all shapes in Visio.
Once I had the process down I wouldn't mind taking a few extra steps. All I really need is just a programme to do it.
I guess I can start opening it up again and toying with it, but when I open it up I usually just sit there clueless. I don't even know where to start. Then I try a few times to start something but can't get it to do what I want it to. So I give up.
This is why I am thinking it just isn't possible with any programme in existence. I thought it would be very simple, but apparently not.
I am beginning to look into hiring a freelance programmer to create the programme to my specifications, but this was a last resort before paying that kind of money.
I do thank you again for all your patience with me.
Edit: I created a quick example of what I want it to look like. Very rough:
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg308/wynnyelle/example.gif)
I apologise, I didn't know how to make straight lines in Photoshop but I want them all straight and at right angles. I decided yes I want the arrows, in certain areas. I don't know if you see where I indicated text...it's nearing 1 am and I just got a little tired to trot out a more accurate example...but it hopefully lets you see what I'm looking for and have designed. I have no question in my mind how I want it to look; I have planned out the style, background colour and appearance, text, info, symbols and use of colour to represent certain pieces of info as well as justifying all the generations each on their own row. I need to know what it will take to get this design out of my head and into an image. :)
Your picture was great! It really captures and illustrates what you're trying to accomplish.
I think Visio may be very close to doing everything you'd like using just Basic shapes. Automatically inserting the picture is the only weakness. Pictures may be added, with a few steps, but it's not with a simple, single button push that the Org Chart environment provides. However, that ought to be possible with the development of a macro.
Do you have Visio available? If not, you can down load a free eval copy, full featured from here: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/visio/default.aspx
I quickly thru together a Visio replication of your drawing. I did not put arrowheads on, that would take about 10 seconds to do. Is this the sort of thing you'd like to see? Placing the pictures is not automatic, but didn't take too long.
Wapperdude
I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic there at first, since my example was a piece o' crap. I just wanted to quickly show what I'll be doing. Although if you look up top at the actual "tree" {more like a tangle} I want to convert, you'll know it's slightly more complex than that, but the connections and stuff will be pretty much just repeating ad infinitum the same basic steps. {Once I'm done with this monster I'll be glad to post back and show it all off.}
I do already have Visio 2000 installed. It's old, but the only version I have. Is that older than the link you provided? Even if it's old, I don't care as long as it does what I need it to which is actually pretty simple stuff. How did you throw your little doggie tree together? i mean, what were the steps and what version did you use for it?
Thanks again!
Quote from: wynnyelle on May 30, 2009, 11:27:30 PM
That's...not quite the look I'm going for although it's a solution of sorts. Is there a way to do it without arrows? {although I'm beginning to think arrows might be good just for the lines from the parents down to the children} I want to use lines at right angles--it looks neater. Meaning only horizontal and vertical lines. Also, once this is constructed is it possible to move characters around {the square with the picture and info in it} and have the lines stretch with them and remain intact? That's important because this tree is getting fresh characters and connections added to it on a regular basis--several a week! :P
Thanks for the help so far, guys. I know that this isn't going to be easy, but whatever programme I need for it I will get. Ultimately if nothing in existence provides what I need it to, then I will begin to look into hiring a programmer to design something custom for me.
This is a lifelong hobby, and therefore I pull all the stops.
Would it be helpful if I whipped up a visual for you guys in Photoshop or something just as an example of what I want it to look like? {a simple unit etc}
I think with visio there is a point - the capabilities of it's graph layout engine are unfortunately rather limited. Not to mention the "API" to that engine. I.e. as far as I understand Visio's 'primary target' are user-created drawngs, not auto-generated graph layouts. So for now IMO if you want to draw your diagrams
manually, you'd better go with Visio; but if you want the
auto-generated graph diagrams, then you can consider something else. Also, probably, there are some specialized tools to draw family tree diagrams...
BTW, it turned out that there is an example of the "marriage diagram" on GraphViz:
http://www.graphviz.org/Gallery/directed/lion_share.html
The pictures shall not be a problem, you just need to configure your dot file accordingly.
Z.b. the "adjusted" file for my example can be found here:
http://nbelyh.googlepages.com/test3.zip
The image it produces:
(http://nbelyh.googlepages.com/test3.gif)
BTW, this might be a good idea for developers - a "family tree" drawing plugin for Visio 8)
Well, I guess my comment could sound sarcastic, but, I tend to do that only with people I know. Actually, my 1st reaction to your original post, was, and I quote, "Yikes!". Your subsequent comments and drawing have helped establish the "framework" your project.
I'm using Visio 2007, which is nearly identical to 2003. I'm not familiar with V2000, but, I believe there were some subtile changes between V2000 and V2003. The link is too a full blown version of V2007. I don't think you need to go there, literally and figuratively.
So, the process to add the picture is not complicated. These happened to be clip art from the Microsoft Office site, but, there is nothing inherently special about them, other than they are very large, file size wise. The process was:
1.) Draw a rectangle, or use the Basic shapes stencil and drag n drop the rectangle shape.
2.) Option1:
a.) directly type your description into the rectangle, format the text so that it is at bottom of the shape.
b.) go to menu bar > Insert > Picture > From file. Select your picture. It'll be the wrong size, probably too big. Zoom out so you can see all of the pix, and then re-size it.
c.) Once it's the right size to fit within the boundaries, align it over the rectangle in the desired location.
d.) Select both rectangle and picture, then, go to menu bar > Shape > Group > create group (or simply hit cntl - shift - G)
3.) Option 2:
a.) skip (a) above, go directly to (b) thru (d).
b.) once grouped, then add text and format.
The difference is the "location" of the text. Option 2 makes it part of the parent group, more accessible. Option 1 makes it part of the rectangle, which is imbedded under the group. See the following regarding grouping: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa200971(office.10).aspx
Those are the basic steps.
Then , to connect the shapes, you have two more options. Use the help to look up connection points and connectors. Too long to explain here. But, option 1 is to add connection points to the shape allowing "static" connections, and option 2 uses "dynamic" connections. See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa200982(office.10).aspx.
That ought to get you started. It's not really that involved. I added 2nd page to Visio file that shows the steps.
Wapperdude
Quote from: wapperdude on May 31, 2009, 12:05:44 AM
Perhaps a shape with a picture.
In Visio, having lines with/without arrow heads is easy. Don't know about GraphViz. The only advantage that GraphViz might have is the ease of adding pictures to the shapes. At least, they talk about that as a feature. Too bad that OrgChart feature isn't built-in for all shapes in Visio.
The advantage of GraphViz over Visio are the smart
graph layout engines (Dot, Neato and other stuff from ATT & others), not the posibility of inserting pictures of course :)
Actually, this is rather set of libraries/tools than a end-user application. But it generates GOOD graph diagrams out of TEXT files. I supposed the topic-starter has his data in the game's database/file, and wanted make diagrams out of that data, so I suggested this. If he has the data only on that sheet of paper from the first post, then drawing diagram in Visio might be definitely a better solution ;)
Wow, thanks guys! The info you gave me here is incredible. I thought I should clarify a couple things, because it was brought up: I wish to construct it manually, rather than through some generator {didn't even know that was possible to do!} so I can manually add photos to those entries that have photos available. Some do, some don't.
I also want all the boxes, all the photos etc to be uniform in size and shape--exactly the same size and shape. Would this be possible, i.e. is there a sort of automatic way to "stamp" them out, like, I would create the first one step by step then somehow save the process as an empty template and then clone it for the next entry?
In case you want to enter the data manually, probably you can also (also, also, Visio rocks here!) consider trying out some specialized "family tree" tools/site for that? I mean, it turns out that there are a lot of "family tree diagram" sites out there, where you can create your diagrams online. Just try googling on that. Though these sites target "real" families, I don't see a reason why not use them for "virtual" families?
In this case you probably can get some contribution from the other players, allowing them to register their "families"; I mean, your first diagram looks huge, so it could become a reall challenge to enter all the data without errors, and then support it's validity over time. But if you were not the only one who mantains this family tree, this could could become a piece of cake!
BTW, which RPG is that, maybe there are peple here from your clan? :D
Kind regards, Nikolay.
It's Warrior Cats the RPG :) biggest warriors text RPG on the internet, as far as I've seen anyway...A monster to help run but well worth it if you love RPing, and you probably guessed that I do :)
The above tree is quite messy, but it IS correct. It is only a small piece of what is there...I have a bunch of others drawn out. I verified the relations by checking old posts, talking to other players, etc. There are issues of duplicate names in a few cases as well as the fact that many of the players are quite young, or simply not capable of accurately inputting entries. They're free to do their own trees, profiles etc and they often do. This is just my pet project for now. :)
I hunted around for a free programme to generate the tree by, but failed to find anything that seemed to be what I was looking for. So I've arrived at trying to use Visio for it.
I worry that in an RPG, you might have situations where various beasts have 3 or 5 parents, which might throw off the family tree sites, but probably not GraphViz :)
lol. no actually they're all cats, so it's all good. We do have several situations where one cat has young by more than one mate, though...that is a situation where, I've heard, standard family tree software comes up short. Even more is the sheer volume we're talking about here. Even from the time I started this thread down to here, that tree I showed you has had several new characters added to it.
I've been thinking of an alternate solution--creating the template purely as a graphic--this would be very easy to do with layers of text and such in Photoshop--and importing it as a single element into Visio, maybe by use of a box containing and completely filled by only that single image {which I'd stamp out in Photoshop} and then, using the lines and arrows and stuff to connect them and, equally importantly, aligning them all neatly in rows.
I'm reallly visio-challenged so this might be simpler for me if I only have to worry about sticking one pic in one box, not worry about text, and just worry about the lines and things.
So, in PS you create your pic + text, insert these pics into Visio, and add the required connections. That ought to work just fine. The only drawback would be any picture editting, i.e., text, requires you to go back into PS, edit the text, then re-insert the picture, and update the connections to that picture. It's mostly what's more convenient and comfortable for you.
One caution with importing the pictures, keep the file size down, otherwise Visio file can balloon very quickly as the number of pictures grows.
The pictures would be small, likely about 100 x 150 or 200 x 150. I could make them gif images too if that would help {smaller filesize}.
Bing is wonderful. It led me to this topic, which I hope is not too dead most of a year later. I am working on a similar project, this one tracking a freeform Dragonriders of Pern RPG that has been in existence for almost 20 years now, and recently got a used copy of Visio 2007 Professional. I am planning to use it without pics for the most part, but to visually represent the dragon colors, along with their name and clutching date. Needless to say, it will be at least as tangled as the original poster's sketches. Any lessons learned from your project would be greatly appreciated, if you have time to share them.